Translated from German by Joerg Braun
Edited by S. Naylor
Original article: here.
[Preamble: The third part of the interview series by Ilja Degtjarov features a young woman associated with the Anti-Maidan movement. She gives us a glimpse “behind the scenes” into that what was never addressed by Western mass media, much less reported. In addition to her narrative regarding the attack on buses with Anti-Maidan activists who were back on their way back to Crimea, we show the documentary The pogrom of Korsun at the end of this article. (The editors) Part one of the series is here.]
I have interviewed one of the first organizers of the Ukrainian Anti-Maidan. Her name is Ekaterina Kornienko, and she has been engaged in humanitarian aid for the East of Ukraine since March 2014 in Russia. Before that she lived in Donetsk and fought against the Junta regime, which came to power by the end of February and intimidated the Anti-Maidan movement by reprisals, and silenced it in most Ukrainian regions.
Recorded by : Ilja Degtjarov
How big was the Anti-Maidan movement in Kiev; were there Anti-Maidan movements in other cities in the eastern, perhaps in the western areas?
When the Maidan came together for the first time, we gave it no attention. We did not consider whether there was a possibility of accession to the EU. Nobody asked us either, if we wanted to. The West of the Ukraine always wanted to join Europe. This is their life: half of them have already been working there. They regularly went, for example, to Poland, just as we regularly go to Russia, including in the Rostov region. We work there, or we transport goods to-from there. And as they started to occupy buildings, we had to react somehow. Originally we gathered on the Europe Square in Kiev. The Europe Square is just a stone’s throw away from the Maidan, so we could hear each other. After a while, it became dangerous.
In the beginning we did not set up tents, but a lot of people came to us by train and bus. They wanted to support our demonstration. At that time we did not use the word “Russia”. We were all sticking to a unified Ukraine, our motto was “unitary land’, i.e. the motto which has been adopted now by the ‘maidanized’ – I cannot call them differently. When we organized the Anti-Maidan, we decided that it should be placed next to the Parliament, the Rada. That was the most important strategic object of our representatives within the Government: the President, which we chose, and our coalition. We wanted that they should be able to continue their work. At that time Kiev had already blocked the work of all government bodies and only the Parliament was still functional. Otherwise the chaos would have been even bigger. We tried with own forces to stop what happened there. Then we built a tent camp on Anti-Maidan. There were representatives from Donetsk, Kharkov, Nikolaev, and Odessa, i.e. from all regions of our eastern part of Ukraine. Many residents of Kiev also joined us. These were people who disliked the devastation on the Maidan.
To tell the truth, I myself went several times to the Maidan out of sheer curiosity. It was interesting to look at this brainwashed crowd. Even to enter their turf, one had to say “Hail Ukraine”. Anyone who didn’t say it was simply not let in. You had to make the arm movement, which the fascists have combined with “Sieg Heil”. I believe that all homeless from Kiev gathered in this pigsty, because you could have free food and get some money. It was joyful: dancing, hopping, marriages. It smelled incredibly, especially when it became warmer and the snow started to thaw.
Our original name was not Anti-Maidan: the people made up this name for us later. We, ourselves, called ourselves “Maidan of Unity”. We had stickers and symbols that said, “Stop dividing this country”. I still have photos of this sticker, which we spread out constantly in Kiev. At that time we already anticipated what would be coming up on us. Our Maidan area was very tidy, we had cleaners. We paid attention to order. In the tents of the Donetsk delegation we had everything set up like we had at home, in contrast to the Maidan.
With regard to the question, why did we split? On February 18th I personally witnessed some events. They – the Maidanites – constantly walked around our camp and shouted “Down with the power!” “Down with oligarchs!”, and other mottos. On of February, a large group came and performed a short demonstration; but after 20 minutes they began to throw Molotov cocktails, fireworks and paving stones. Between them and us there were still police officers standing. Many people were injured. They lost their hands and their eyesight, but no mass media have shown it.
Though Ukrainian mass media were visiting us, but they did not film something like that. They were filming when we handed over the Maidan people we caught to the police. In contrast to the Maidan, we have never tortured anyone, never held anyone as prisoner. After our camp was destroyed on February 18th, it was announced that the Maidan would be cleared within two hours. The Maidan was encircled, and we were sure that when order was finally restored in Kiev everything would work again.
But Yanukovych, a man of weak character, arranged for a corridor of safety for women and children to be organized. As a result, the Maidan armed and mobilized itself. When I woke up on February 20th, I heard everywhere from the radio sets: “There is shooting”. At that time they already tasted blood, At that time they already understood that you can kill.
Remarkable. So, what is happening now in Donetsk and Lugansk?
The Ukrainians believe, they are convinced, that they are waging a war against Russia. But in these areas there were no Russians; apart, perhaps, from some few volunteers. From my friends with whom I communicate and with whom I grew up, about 70% became militia. Five have already been buried.
Those fighting and dying were ordinary people. Yes, Russia provided humanitarian aid. However, this help did not go to the militia, but to ordinary, peaceful civilians. You could see that we delivered goods to peaceful civilians who became hostages of war. For what are the children to blame, who are being killed? For what are women to blame, who are being shot without pity?
Those Ukrainian soldiers, who first shouted they would kill, were later, in captivity, very different. In captivity, they claimed that they knew nothing at all about against whom they fought; that they didn’t know that they were killing simple women and children. But they knew that! Those who did not want to participate in the war, those who were not infected by this national idea; they stayed at home, hiding from the mobilization. Those who went consciously wanted to fight against us.
Let’s take the case of this underdeveloped Lyashko, a person who comes from – who knows where – a pederast. He is speaking openly on a Ukrainian TV channel that all the boys from the East, even at the age of only one month, must be killed, and that all women have to be raped; so that only ‘Ukrainians’ are reproducing.
Did he say really that?
All TV channels showed that. Where do they look, those who are responsible for international conventions, for human rights? They choose to look the other way just as they once did in Yugoslavia, Syria and Libya. Nobody listens to us and also nobody wants to listen to us. Very often, friends and acquaintances from Dnepropetrovsk and Kiev describe me as ‘Putin’s prostitute’. This information war is currently the most powerful weapon. Long ago these people were already brainwashed.
I was born in 1992, when Ukraine was already independent, so I am still very young. I have always considered Ukraine as my home country. Therefore there was actually no reason that I wished a reunification with Russia or to fight for Russia. I speak Ukrainian very well. I know the anthem; I had my school lessons in Ukrainian. So that was my country, where I grew up. But now, after they came to us, to kill us – my father, my mother, my brother, my sister – I can no longer consider myself as Ukrainian.
I am ashamed that I’m Ukrainian; I want to have my passport swapped. This nation has become nationalistic, even fascistic. Also, the traditions have become fascistic. I have always said that we must distinguish between patriotism and nationalism. I am a patriot. I love my people, I would die for them, but I do not hate other countries. Despite the war with Germany my attitude towards the Germans is neutral. The war was long ago and today’s people took no part in it. This is really a new, completely different nation. Why should I hate the Germans or the French or Russians or Polish? I have a neutral attitude towards them. In contrast, the nationalists accept only themselves. This is the old psychology of fascism.
They regard themselves as descendants of the OUN(Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, est. 1929)/UPA(Ukrainian Insurgent Army, est. 1942), like the world-famous Bandera. These however, were people who led punitive commands and killed their own citizens from the Soviet Union, peaceful Ukrainian civilians.
Lately we had a tense situation with regard to the Russian language. My mother and my father speak Russian. It is very difficult to meet someone in Donbas who will speak Ukrainian. The people even turn around when they hear it. This is originally a Russian region, where Russian was spoken from the outset. But we have not been reluctant to use Ukrainian: you have to fill out all documents in Ukrainian; everyone was able to master it more or less.
I’d like it very much, if Putin would be our President, too. Look at Crimea. What was done after the reunification? Russian, Ukrainian and even Tatar are acknowledged as official languages. But that is not talked about in Ukraine at all. And in this situation you always have to watch the interests of the regions, to maintain peace and order.
Now it is no longer possible to continue to coexist peacefully with them; after all these murders, after all these children have been killed. According to official reports about 50 children have been killed. We do not know how many actually were killed. Now, they speak of 71 children killed;
okay, 71. Anyway, we cannot know exactly how many children and women from the civilian population died. After something like that we can never live here again. And if you call us Ukrainians, e.g. in reports of refugees, that is already insulting us. We are fighting to not be Ukrainians any more. We are inhabitants of Donetsk, Lugansk, but definitely not Ukrainians any more. This is the result of the actions of the current Government. You also cannot overlook what the Maidan has not accomplished: the oligarchs remain in power.
What happened here, with the founding of the people’s republics, was the manifestation of the will of the people. Prior to the events in Odessa [on 02.05.2014: the mass burning of Anti-Maidan activists] many were not sure whether they should be for or against the people’s republics. Somehow, they have continued to live, to work. Many did not need more than that. But when people were burned alive, absolutely everyone has changed their mind. Then, we have conducted the referendum. On May 2, people were burned, and we carried out the referendum on May 11th. This incident has greatly influenced public opinion.
If we go back to the Anti-Maidan: In the West, one would say of course it had been paid by Putin, or by Russian oligarchs, and everything has been a Moscow project.
They didn’t pay us. I personally was on the Anti-Maidan for ideological reasons. Yes, there was a food supply. Also, there were tents, blankets, heaters and gasoline given to us, because it was so cold. All the people who were there were peaceful. They all were for finally ending the chaos in the country, for peace, understanding, for a united country. At that time we hadn’t even thought of Putin and Russia and their money. If you had told me in February that we soon would conduct a referendum for the Union with Russia, I would have considered such a person insane. We didn’t need Russia. It was not too bad for us even without Russia: there was building/construction in the country, people had adapted to the circumstances. I had made the point that Russia in no way needed us either. I was one of the leading organizers of Anti-Maidan and I did not want to know anything of Putin, etc. No, we were not paid and I want this to actually reach the people: we were not there for the money, we just wanted this chaos to come to an end.
It was a shame for the young policemen who were there. They were mostly just 18-to-20 year old boys, for whom we bought several things at our own expense. Ukraine is a poor country: the guys had hardly been equipped for their orders. We bought them cigarettes and food, and helped them as we could. And since we were there together for a long time, we became a family. And we looked at all that happened there as a betrayal of the people that we had protected.
We were for the unity of the country. About two hours after the destruction of the camp of Anti-Maidan, when we went there and looked at it all, I felt an inner emptiness. We understood that we were betrayed and that a disaster was coming towards us; that no one would help us. When we returned to Donetsk – like me, or to other cities – Sevastopol, Kharkov etc. – we knew that a certain limit has been exceeded.
By the way, I was very surprised that our area of Donetsk had risen anyhow. We work a lot in our area and have no time for politics. All have completely different concerns: start a family and support it, buy a car, feed the children. We had no time for nonsense. What have the inhabitants of Western Ukraine have been busy with? In their cities, they are occupied with tourism; therefore they just let their houses and apartments on a lease. They did not have other occupations. Accordingly, they came easily to the Maidan and were paid for this as well.
How big were Anti-Maidan events, and did Ukrainian and Western journalists attend them?
Once three journalists from Lithuania and Estonia dropped in. They spoke Russian very well. They came over by accident. They said that they did not know at all that an Anti-Maidan existed. They were very astonished how friendly we were; we welcomed them with open arms. They were puzzled how clean and well arranged our tents were, what discipline we had. With regard to the total number of participants, some days there were up to 50,000 people. This particularly applies to days of mass demonstrations, e.g. when the Maidan wanted to prevent the adoption of the budget of the country for the year 2014. They blocked everything. And how shall live without a budget, how should we pay out the salaries of the officials: the police, the doctors, the teachers? At other, ordinary days, there were not many people, about 3-4 thousand per day.
Because it was not paid then, they had to work.
Yes, we could not simply live there, we had to work. [mobile phone rings]I am called by people from Kazakhstan, from Belarus too. They help us a lot. They are also worried and think about how they can help us. However, I wouldn’t say that there is much help coming from other countries. Nearly everything is coming from Russia. What would we do without Russia? I cannot imagine at all. To where would we flee, what would we do if Russia had refused to accept these masses of refugees? Currently only 40% of the population remains in Donetsk, at most. Where are the rest? They are all here. Very few have gone in the direction of Kiev. Perhaps they have decided that it is better not to leave the country. Well, everyone has his own reasons…
If we count up all the refugees, i.e. people who moved within the Ukraine, those who emigrated to Russia, those who live in refugee camps or with their relatives, I personally have the impression that there are already over a million refugees.
Yes, that’s what it looks like. I don’t know the official information and – to be honest – I never paid attention to that. I have too much work to do and do not have the time to search for those numbers. But it is a fact that we are talking about more than a million. About 7 – 8 million people live in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions and when you see how empty it is there – no people, no cars, empty shops – one can assume that there are no people in the cities. Over 50% of people are probably gone now.
It is also possible that people flee from other regions, such as those who fear they have to join the army, or just do not want to live in such a country.
It remains engraved in the psyche of the generation who have experienced it all, and this is terrible. These refugee children, whom I visit so often, and that I’ve met in various Russian cities – during thunderstorms, when it thunders they are afraid that they are fired at. I was, for example, in Perm, Russia. Actually, each of them needs psychological help. Imagine how many of them there are, masses. It is virtually impossible to eliminate these fears. They will have to spend their whole life with their fears.
Half a year ago I definitely did not think that in my country a war would be waged, that the country would be divided. Now we can see that this is the case. The city Slavyansk e.g. is completely bombed. There is nothing to repair: you have to rebuild it completely. And that in a poverty-stricken country. Now from these poor people, like teachers, from their salary of 1,500-2,000 hryvnia is deducted; partly for the financing of the army although one cannot feed oneself by this money anyway. Plus, everything has become even more expensive from bread to the living costs.
It looks like the beginning of a famine. It is really ridiculous if the Ukrainian army steals food from the militia: they are just hungry; this is simply a poverty-stricken country. And with this governance the nationalists want to live in the future? They will have nothing to eat, they will have no work. But they were screaming that our territory will get subsidies. That was never the case! On the contrary, we are an industrial area, we have mines, therefore we had to share everything we earned with Kiev.
I want that every Ukrainians to finally understand: it must not continue like that any further. Every person has some pity, compassion, and when I see videos from militia, showing destroyed Ukrainian armored cars, I think of these dead soldiers: young people, twenty years old. I just feel very bad about them. They have been charged with these emotions, with this desire to murder and that works pretty quickly with young people. They die, without understanding what they are fighting for, what they are killing for. We know, however, what we fight for: we are fighting for our country, for our children, our women. We will never give away this country to anyone, because we were born here, because we grew up here. Every house was rebuilt after the Second World War. My grandmother has the status of “Child of the war”. She was born in 1936 and was, therefore, a kid during the Great Patriotic War. And she says that she is now experiencing the same times or sometimes even worse. At that time we were fighting against Germany and it was clear that the Germans were our enemies. Now, this is not clear. This is a civil war and there is nothing worse than civil war.
Both sides have been prepared for this conflict. I went to school in 1999, we still used old textbooks then. And when the new books appeared, the teachers told us that it is impossible to pack the history of the World War II into only two pages. And they told us the whole truth [despite the new textbooks]. However, they have taught the children in Western Ukraine, that Germans were their liberators. Because of that it is hard to explain anything to them: they were educated like that. And the government did not care, which also applies to the representatives of Eastern Ukraine – Yanukovych and his party of the regions. You have not been paying attention to what children were taught. Ten years ago they were young children and nobody cared about their proper education, with appropriate consequences. My brother is 9 years old and when he asks me why they kill us, I cannot answer him.
Are there any reports of drug abuse on the Maidan? Have you heard anything about that? Why have people become as they are, even those who appeared quite normal recently?
I did not just hear about the drugs, I saw them. People we detained on February 18th, were questioned by us in the Department. We did not beat them, didn’t tie them up; we simply put them on the floor and talked to them. The first five hours they kept repeating endlessly, they were Europeans, they had to join Europe, they had to kill and other nonsense. There was an 18-year old boy, still a child. I felt so bad about him that we did not gave him to the police, but to his parents. The first five hours he repeated like a maniac, one must kill, one has to throw Molotov cocktails. It was impossible to talk to him. After five hours he showed withdrawal symptoms, he felt nauseous. We called both doctors and his parents. The parents were shocked, that their child was obviously on drugs.
The people of the Anti-Maidan felt sympathy. All Maidan supporters had been treated medically. I even walked around there with antiseptic agents. However, our guys who had been taken captive by Maidan supporters never returned. Many of them are still missing. When the Anti-Maidan was destroyed, I left by train. And – I don’t know whether you have heard of it in Germany – departing buses were shot at up in Crimea (see video below – note d. red.)
I myself, as well as the head of the delegation from Crimea have talked to people who were fired at, and it was terrible. Words failed them. Many of them are still regarded as missing. One participant is living in Sevastopol with a bullet in the coccyx. Doctors from Sevastopol cannot perform the removal of the bullet, it’s too dangerous. At that time the war had not yet started: someone had simply stopped them because they were inhabitants of Crimea, because they were opposed to the Maidan, and they were shot at.
How many have been shot dead?
About 27. Most died in the first bus that was shot at. And they had no sympathy: at Maidan they gouged the eyes of a boy from the Special Unit Berkut. And they filmed everything as well. They beat people to death. For what? To maintain law and order? The police did not care who was in power: their task was to ensure law and order. And yet their fingers were chopped off, their eyes gouged out. There are countless examples of that. Now it is simply war, but at that time, at the very beginning, everything just looked crazy. There was another case when the head of a teenager from our ranks was shattered with a paving stone. We had to suture his skull directly on-site. How inhuman do you have to be to pelt people with stones? We didn’t use these paving stones until the very end. The police protected themselves with shields and we just stopped at a distance. Two tents of the Donetsk delegation, which were closer to the supporters of Maidan, went up in flames. There were documents, passports, stuff from some participants. Anyway, it was forbidden by the police to take paving stones.
Nevertheless, when we understood, that we not could beat back attacks in a different way, we started to throw them at the Maidan followers. This was self-defense after many of us were injured. Some of us had their hands torn off. They have pelted us with explosive packages, which resulted in a slight concussion. I picked up such people, at first they were not even able to speak. Additionally also pelted us with fireworks. It is no secret that you have to deal with that correctly. And if you throw them at people, they can have dreadful consequences. ‘Fireworks’ sounds harmless at first, but in reality people were seriously injured.
There are reports that Germany is helping the Ukrainian army. Officially, it was reported that Germany provides uniforms. In Lugansk packaging of German combat helmets were found at the site where the Ukrainian army was stationed. In an interview by Anna-News the militia stated that they have heard German on their radios. Do you know anything about this?
About the Germans I haven’t heard anything, there have been no further reports. But we are in contact with stringers from Anna-News and I can confirm that they have heard German through radios. Whether they are involved in the fighting or spying, I don’t know. At first, for a while, we specifically searched for evidence of mercenaries. Now we no longer do that. By accident – well, not quite by accident, because our comrades were involved – we received photos of passports from mercenaries. These documents were a bombshell. We were called by many TV stations and were asked whether they could use these materials. We allowed it. It is true that there are British mercenaries here to join. Regarding Germans, we know nothing, so personally I do not know which side they support.
It’s a fact that American military dried foods have been found here in the woods…
If America did not help them, the war would have ended long ago. Ukraine itself has no resources for it. They have even touched the state food storage, which may only be touched in case of war. This means that they cannot feed the army in a different way. At the same time, war was not officially declared: They call it ‘anti-terrorist operation’. And the stocks in these stores are slowly coming to an end, so they cannot feed the people anymore. Therefore, America jumps in with the dry food. About American arms I cannot say anything, I do not know if anything has been delivered.
By the way, on the Internet there are plenty of photos of helmets having something in German in it. Is it possible that any goods came from Germany to Ukraine?
They delivered them officially. They are very proud of it and showed it on all the news. So, this was not a secret operation. Could we but go back to the Maidan. It is not hard to guess where they had the money from, but I would ask you to comment on this.
Even the richest oligarchs here would not have been able to pay so much money to so many people. I heard the prices and was extremely surprised. We have nobody here who could have given so much money. Accordingly, the money came from outside, not from our country. Those who pulled the strings, all those European leaders who visited the Maidan, they paid for everything. They brought food and were distributing it in front of cameras. They didn’t distribute the cash money they brought with them in front of the cameras. This is no secret. All know that America paid for this, too. America would collapse without war.
You mentioned prices. How much money was given? Can you convert that into Euros or US dollars, to make it clear?
For living on the Maidan, people were paid 160 US dollars per day. One was paid $50 for throwing a Molotov cocktail. Per every three people who threw, there was one that counted and was paid for. People who did shoot, got $1,000 per day. They knew that they could be arrested, in case the plan would not work. One must take into account that this is a great deal of money in our country. Actually, already $150 per day is a huge amount for an average Ukrainian. In the Western Ukraine, $150 is a monthly salary.
Image Credits: Picture 1: Symbolpicture Picture 2: Symbolpicture Picture 3: Ilja DegtjarovOn the night of 20-21 February 2014, armed activists of the Euromaidan in the vicinity of the town of Korsun–Schewtschenkowskiy stopped buses returning from Kiev. On the buses were a few hundred opponents of the Euromaidan, returning to Crimea from Kiev. The buses were engulfed in armed violence and set on fire. For the approximately 350 people, including women and young people, cruel beatings and harassment were waiting…
SLAVYANGRAD.org 
Thrasyvulos towords Oligarchs (Athens 403 BC) | vgiannelakis
http://vgiannelakis.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/thrasyvulos-towords-oligarchs-athens-403-bc/
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Posted by rizes | Sep 1, 2014, 17:53You see, @Spartacus and @Gerry, those are the kind of people of Donbas, I talked about, BEFORE the militarization of the conflict. And what the Western schoolbooks of Ukraine teach (that SS and Wehrmacht were ‘liberators’ to Kiev from Russian (and Jewish) occupation), have found its counterpart in the heads of the Militia Leaders (that ‘Slavs’ should free Ukraine from Western forces).
Regarding the political position of Germany in this conflict:
My government is officially a great supporter of Maidan and the Kiev Fascists right from the beginning of the forming Coup de Etats in 2013. There were close relationships with Germany and EU by the Klitschko-Party ‘Punch!’ (no pun intended), which received serious funding. Though forced to the backseats of power by the Obama-Administration (Nuland: ‘I think, we don’t want Clitch in there … I mean: Fuck the EU!’), Klitschko is still a key figure in this Maidan-show and the beginning and ongoing Civil War. He was granted the Mayor of Kiev seat and comes up with glorious ideas like painting benches, bridge fences and other city infrastructure in the colors of the state flag – a brainwashing technique, which was also practiced by Bn Azov at Mariupol. But Germany does not need Klitschko anymore, as my government is shaking directly hands with Poroshenko and Yatseniuk, Klimkin and others.
Right Sector fanatic and MP in Kiev Oleg Lyashko can be seen with a German flag on his heavy body armor, which is official German military equipment, while ‘interrogating’ a ‘terror suspect’:
Germany has given significant funds to Kiev – and has promised 500 Million € to Kiev some days ago.
My impression is, that the population of Germany is mostly desinterested in the Civil War of Ukraine, but those, who are interested in politics, are clearly split: there is a serious fissure in the Net community, debates between ‘Putinists’ and ‘Americanics’ are running hot, it’s like a new Cold War in the gazettes.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 1, 2014, 22:05“You see, @Spartacus and @Gerry, those are the kind of people of Donbas, I talked about.”
What the hell are you on about? The savages were from W Ukraine, not Donbas.
BTW your smear propaganda about the resistance/Militia using “human shields” is disgusting nonsense, because the Militia are part of the population of Novorussia, just as the resistance in Gaza are part of that population too.
Of course you and other Zionists twist things, so as to make it seem as though defenders against aggression “asked for it” and are somehow to blame for the death of their neighbours, though the fact of the matter is that even if the resistance in both Donbas and Gaza had somehow magicked away, the Nazi regimes in both Kiev and Tel Aviv would have still bombed and slaughtered thousands.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 2, 2014, 10:21@Gerry, you really don’t get it, don’t you? Or you just don’t want to get it, don’t know.
Especially, if you are citing me only partially out of context – and leaving out all the important rest of my lines … .
I talked about the PEACEFUL protesters of Donbas (and other parts of Ukraine) PRIOR the MILITARIZATION of the conflict, right?
I neither suggested, that those people from Donbas are ‘savages’, nor that others from Western Ukraine are ‘savages’, when they belong to peaceful political organizations. And I generally don’t think in such terms like ‘savages’, when I refer to human beings, @Gerry. No, I don’t.
BUT I TALKED ABOUT THE MILITIA LEADERSHIP OF HEADQUARTER OFFICER RANK, WHICH COMMANDS EXECUTIONS AND TORTURE OF CIVILIANS AND (UNDERAGED) POW OF UKRAINE, RUSSIA AND EVEN DONBAS.
Did you get that, @Gerry?
I got that information from an eye-witness account of a Russian journalist ON THIS BLOG.
Did you get that, @Gerry? Can I move on, yes?
” … because the Militia are part of the population of Novorussia … ” [Gerry]
So, here it is: your simplification syndrome of naivity, @Gerry, which let you fail to GRASP THE WHOLE TRUTH OF NOVORUSSIA.
Not all of the Militia Fighters are from Donbas, lots of them are even from Western Ukraine, from Kiev (e.g. former Berkut Special Police Force), lots of them are from Russia, but the most important thing is: the IDEOLOGICAL IMPORT OF THE OFFICER AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP by people like Strelkov and Borodai. I have written about that in length, @Gerry.
But I fear, despite your war-zone experience, that is all beyond your comprehension ability, right?
People like you, @Gerry, have not the detail knowledge to analyze a political or historical situation. They are just helpless in their ‘black-white-painting’-naivity.
Yes, @Gerry, the Militia of Novorussia is abusing the civilian population as human shields – just by staying in the cities and villages.
And it is quite questionable, if the 95% of peaceful people of Donbas (or Western Ukraine) were ever asked by Kiev or the Militia Leadership to go to Civil War. Quite the opposite: if civilians of Donetsk are asking for peace talks, they get tortured or shot. Just read the eye-witness-account of the Russian journalist, carefully, @Gerry, carefully.
Do you know, what my impression of this conflict is, right now?
It’s a PROXY-WAR BETWEEN AMERICA-EU AND RUSSIA. It’s not about the Freedom of Novorussia or the people. Dig that, @Gerry.
The people of Ukraine, regardless from where they are coming, are just TOOLS. Poor people. 😦
And no, @Gerry, I am still no ‘Zionist’.
If YOU are so eager to defend the people of Donbas against Western aggression, then grab your gun, your garden shovel, or whatever have you, take a flight from Australia right down to Rostov and hitchhike over the border. I am sure, they have a use over there for your war zone/emergency service expertise – but watch out your Aussie Lingo – and do you look and behave like a ‘Slav’!? Otherwise you could find yourself in the torture cellars of Donetsk SBU.
I am losing my temper with you, really, @Gerry.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 2, 2014, 17:14And … ehrr … I forgot: It’s quite disturbing for me, how you manage to put Zionism, Nazism, Kiev and Tel Aviv all into the same category of (non-)thinking, @Gerry.
For me, those things should be differentiated and contextualized. Zionism and Nazism are old political movements with completely different topics, goals and peer groups – and Kiev and Tel Aviv are old cities in very different geographical zones with different cultural traditions and conflicts. Please, don’t confuse and mix everything, @Gerry. Nationalsocialism and the Holocaust are on a totally different level of destruction in comparison to the long-term conflict between culturally and politically opposed groups in Israel/Palestinia, which is a direct result of the ideas of Zionism (to found a Jewish state in Israel) and Nazism (to exterminate the European Jews).
If you can follow me in that, @Gerry, I would applaude, if not, well, then … I should recommend a good book!?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 2, 2014, 21:15Perhaps you can follow this:
Zionism, Nazism and other similar ideologies have such fundamental common features as intense nationalism, a claim to special/chosen/superior racial or ethnic status, militarism, entitlement to territory (e.g. Ersatz Israel and Lebensraum), inflated hubris, extreme arrogance and a claim to absolute rightness.
The label adopted is irrelevant – though I’ve used two as shorthand for what many people understand as essentially psychopathy – and so too is location and period of history, e.g. Alexander the (un)Great was the Napoleon/Hitler/Stalin/Mao of his day, and Obama’s current speeches express the same mentality, albeit that he is just a front man for the Empire. So one can add the labels “American Exceptionalism”, “British Jingoism”, “Doctrinaire Communism” and so on for an essential sameness typical of all empires and wannabe empires throughout the ages.
I know that you hate any departure from your linear interpretation of things, but there are valid ways of seeing things more broadly and deeply.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 3, 2014, 00:42I can follow you, @Gerry, as you are trying to go down the route every (amateur) human scientist wants to go: superficial OVERSIMPLIFICATION of very complex situations (like human believe systems and behavior).
If you wanna go that way, then ABSTRACT, not SIMPLIFY or CONFUSE things.
So, instead of saying, that Israeli Nazi-Zionists are psychopaths, it would be more fair to say, that artificial states with a recent history of collective traumatization and permanent conflict are easily hysterical and aggressively overreacting.
I would accept your way of thinking about History, @Gerry, if you could state a Theory of Empires, which is backed up by professional source interpretation (impossible for a single scientist today, as the scope of such a theory is too vast …). Some people try this in fact, trying to detect the big patterns of History (like in Universal History or so-called World History), but it’s more or less a SUMMARY of the big volumes in the libraries, the kilometers of bookshelves, that means: oversimplification.
To really abstract, what Mao has in common with Alexander, you would need some proven Theory of Human Psychology on an anthropological, that means static level at least. But if you are inclined to say, that the Human Psyche is dynamic and evolving through time – and that Mao and Alexander were individuals in a singular historical situation, which is gone, well, then things start to get slippery on the slope … .
“I know that you hate any departure from your linear interpretation of things” [Gerry]
Well, I enjoyed the battlefield victories of Novorussia for some time – until I found information, that some POW are tortured or shot (Mozgovoi in his latest statements on this blog: we take no prisoners, that’s not our objective …), which dampened my enjoyment quite significantly. Don’t know, if that is ‘linear interpretation’.
You asked questions, @Gerry, I answered them.
Let me ask you also 1 single question:
Where does the teeth-pulling-torture of teenager POW at the Donetsk SBU cellars fit into your broad and deep Theory of Empires, regarding the fact, that Novorussia seems to be a Mini-Empire in the making?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 3, 2014, 18:16In Donbas and Gaza, using “human shields” is otherwise known as “Going home for dinner.”
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Posted by Cass | Sep 18, 2014, 04:28Reblogged this on EU: Ramshackle Empire.
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Posted by jimsresearchnotes | Sep 2, 2014, 14:54Hello!Im new to your blog but Im from Canada.
I just wanted you to know and in fact am trying to post on as many Ukraine related/Russia related blogs as I can find,that,even though I know how severely the World Media has been trying to poison and brainwash the minds of people everywhere on the globe, concerning “THEIR “ narrative of whats been transpiring there in the Ukraine since Feb,Im not one of those theyve managed to brainwash.
The one way I can lend my support is by trying to post everywhere I can, to let you know that there still are MANY whom have not been hoodwinked & know full well what the REAL story has been.
For many months I have spent my days scouring the Internet looking for Private Blogs and forums and Alternative media to learn all I can from YOUR perspective.
I dont listen to one single word of ANY Mainstream Media anywhere.
I havent even looked at a Yahoo Home Page or MSN Homepage in many months.
Im very thankful for your blog and encourage you to keep posting and get your stories out.
I absolutely HATE what my own Government is doing , have sent numerous emails to Canadian Media with many links and articles to try to
“RE-PROGRAM” them with the REAL TRUTH
,Ive been praying day and night for you all in the East Ukraine and I even had a flashing vision the other day (which I truly am hoping was from God) where I saw an entire encircling of TANKS round the Government Buildings in KIEV and the entire RADA inside not knowing what to do .
My prayer has been that God would give Novorussia KIEV as your reward, because Novorussia should be the one to have her;the most deserving of her, because Novorussia would only bring GOOD to it not EVIL and treat her with kindness.
So I just wanted you to know that though Im on the other side of the world Novorussia is in my heart.
I weep with you all daily ,I pray for you daily but I also weep and pray for those in West Ukraine whom are all mere victims of a very evil scheme of the USA and the EU.It was twisted, cruel and sinister right from the start and Ive been with you since that horrific day in Feb and followed your story since.You are an inspiration and a beacon of hope to all of us whom are “AWAKE” to the truth.Thank you and God Bless.
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Posted by JEANNIE | Sep 2, 2014, 20:12Welcome Jeannie, I am fairly new here too and on the other side of the world in Australia, but I feel exactly as you do and I endorse your prayers, though I cannot personally believe in a God.
Have you visited “The Vineyard of the Saker” and “Voice of Sevastopol” for instance, as other sources of news for Novorussia?
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 2, 2014, 20:29“My prayer has been that God would give Novorussia KIEV as your reward, because Novorussia should be the one to have her;the most deserving of her, because Novorussia would only bring GOOD to it not EVIL and treat her with kindness.” [Jeannie]
Be careful, what you pray for, @Jeannie, I am not so quite sure about the absolute ‘goodness’ of the rising Novorussia state. It’s more realistic, that you will see alot more bloodshed and broken bodies, if Novorussian (or Russian) tanks will ever reach Kiev (which is quite a possibility right now) – and your prayers would be more useful, if you could prevent a NATO reaction then – because, I for myself, don’t wan’t to vaporize in a Nuclear Blast (well, it would not matter then anyway …), as I am living in the old hotspot of a Transatlantic Nuclear War (in Germany).
By the way, in 21st Century, Metropoles should not be given as a ‘present’ to a state in battle from our Lordship Godfather in Heaven.
No offense, @Jeannie, but that is an Old Testamentarian Hardcore Bible Belt worldview, where the God is meddling in human warfare. Well, that is not that much different from the Orthodox Right Wing Mysticism of Colonel Strelkov of Novorussia, I guess, so, yeah, @Jeannie, you are definitely on the same ‘wavelength’ there, if you know, what I mean … .
” … but I also weep and pray for those in West Ukraine whom are all mere victims of a very evil scheme of the USA and the EU” [Jeannie]
Yep, that’s the case, @Jeannie. Your prayers are surely needed in that regard.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 2, 2014, 21:59@Historian: “MILITIA LEADERSHIP OF HEADQUARTER OFFICER RANK, WHICH COMMANDS EXECUTIONS AND TORTURE OF CIVILIANS AND (UNDERAGED) POW OF UKRAINE, RUSSIA AND EVEN DONBAS.” Where is proof of this (torture of civilians)?
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Posted by CalDre | Sep 4, 2014, 20:02Sorry, @Caldre, didn’t see you … .
‘Proof’ would be a too heavy word, but I would dare to say: the witnesses are to be taken serious.
1) info about the torture of seemingly 16-year-old boys, ‘accused’ by the Militia of being Right Sector members by teeth-pulling, heavy beating and finally execution – here on this blog:
https://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/30/journalist-from-urals-about-few-weeks-spent-in-the-dpr/
2) Human Rights Watch – several cases of politicians, journalists, activists and artists getting into the way of the Militia with very unpleasent effects:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/28/ukraine-rebel-forces-detain-torture-civilians
I want to say, that those tortures and executions seem to be systematic, not accidental. There is serious intelligence at work in Novorussia, searching for ‘troublemakers’, spies and political opposition. Who wonders about that? And the methods are very, well, Berkut/FBU/SBU-like … .
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Posted by Historian | Sep 6, 2014, 19:42Interesting. Well the first report is “odd” (to say the least), and published from an anonymous (Nicholas is a pseudonym) person, meaning the reliability is quite low (i.e., level of a twitter post – near zero). HRW has an agenda and so their observations are generally suspect, though certainly much more reliable than the anonymous blogger (at least we can be confident there is some foundation to them rather than made up from whole cloth).
As to HRW, they mention prisoners and executions, but since DPR is the governing authority in an area of millions of people, certainly one would expect them to have prisoners, no? What political area of millions doesn’t, especially during war when countless are being killed? They do not list the alleged crimes of those who were allegedly executed – I can imagine they could be quite serious ones. Have you heard and analyzed the DPR response to HRW’s charges?
I don’t want to pretend that DPR is some perfect utopia, I have no basis to say this or anything else about them, but your claim to which I responded is so far not at all supported. Undoubtedly there are some viscious people on both sides of the conflict – those who are viscious are drawn to such conflicts, and the horrors of war can cause a sane man to lose common sense.
But you tried to make it sound like an institutional practice, as if the entire DPR leadership is made up of monsters, and for this conclusion you have provided exactly zilch evidence.
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Posted by CalDre | Sep 9, 2014, 20:05[Late answer …]
“As to HRW, they mention prisoners and executions … ” [Caldre]
Did you read the whole thing, @Caldre? They are naming and describing several eyewitness accounts of SYSTEMATIC and ORGANIZED TORTURE on civilians, mostly political activists, artists, journalists, churchmen, peaceful protesters and the like, who have ‘zilch’ affiliation with military or secret service of Ukraine, but who maybe critical and ‘subversive’ in the eyes of the Militia – that seems to be enough to be a ‘suspect’ – and to be tortured, sometimes executed. That is – or was, don’t know, the ‘socio-political’ climate in Donetsk, as someone put it here in the comment sections – and the climate of FEAR civilians are experiencing in the DPR. It does not surprise me, not really, as you say, @Caldre:
“I don’t want to pretend that DPR is some perfect utopia […] Undoubtedly there are some viscious people on both sides of the conflict – those who are viscious are drawn to such conflicts, and the horrors of war can cause a sane man to lose common sense.” [Caldre]
My thesis is, as you have recognized, that the systematic nature of this torture practice leads to my conclusion, that it is commanded straight from the HQ level of the DPR, especially during the time, when Strelkov was in charge over there, first at Slavjansk and afterwards at Donetsk. Strelkov seems to be a Moscow specialist in anti-terror-operations and with a secret service background, who is giving lectures about topics like ‘extra-constitutional warfare’ and ‘illegal methods’. I think, Strelkov is the central key figure in the organization of the DPR and even LPR Militia (as Mozgovoi was his personal recruitment assistant and staff member) and his ideological roots in Monarchism and Panslavistic Eurasianism are hinting at some hardliner mentality – which is encouraging torture and execution. Nevertheless he was not simply ‘drawn to such conflicts’, but rather commanded by an official (Putin? Probably …), and the ‘common sense’ between Moscow and DPR in this regard was to keep the Separatist Movement MOVING and to not tolerate ANY opposition. Well, that would be some climate of oppression, right?
I suppose, Strelkov has gone too far – and therefore he had to resign.
“But you tried to make it sound like an institutional practice … ” [Caldre]
No, I did not just ‘try’, I rather stated, that it IS/WAS ‘an institutional practice’, @Caldre. If it still is, I don’t know. I hope not.
Strelkov, by the way, is planning his next hardliner moves at Moscow, right now, fighting from the ‘inside’, so to say … .
I think, @Caldre, it is misleading to dismiss every possible source of information as ‘having an agenda’ or being ‘dubious’. Both info links of me delivered plentiful of information, which I took serious, reading carefully and comparing – like I am used to do with sources. I have a fine sense for fake-info and propaganda, regardless of the side of the conflict. And I just want to see the things as they are, ok?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 16, 2014, 18:07I have had it with you “mr historian”.
I told you that I have you tagged and this is partly how:
Like others of your ilk, you are anti-Slavic.
This was a main plank in Nazi German ideology and a line you keep pushing, if somewhat subtly and couched in cherry-picked “historical facts” of recent events.
If you had ever been truly pro-Novorossia, then I would call you out as a “fifth column” or Quisling, but you are a plant from wherever … Kiev? Tel Aviv? Berlin? What’s the difference,?
If you had constrained yourself from rubbishing Igor Strelkov, then you might have gotten away with subversion for longer, but I and many others truly admire the man and his commitment to his people. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRcrAasjGY#t=252
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 16, 2014, 18:47” … but I and many others truly admire the man and his commitment to his people.” [Gerry]
Go on, @Gerry, I don’t want to destroy your fanboy dreams of heroism in times of war.
I have lost those dreams since reading books – and understanding them – about the Big Wars and Auschwitz as a teen, @Gerry.
Just take my advice to inform yourself about the ideology of Alexander Dugin, if you have not done this. You could learn, that you are admiring a ‘man’ (Strelkov) and his ideas, who inspired even Adolf Hitler, as the White Movement of post-1917 was really a prototype and direct inspiration for German Nationalsocialism. Dig that, @Gerry.
So what do you want from me? Shell I confess, that I am a German Nazi/Quisling/Zionist, as you are ‘tagging’ me for some (boring) time now? I even think, that you – who is comparing everyone with everything in his thoroughly ANTISEMITIC vocab – do not really know, what Nazism or Zionism REALLY means – historically, scientifically – but you keep putting those terms in your mouth, you keep mumbling accusations in my direction … .
No, @Gerry, I am not ‘Anti-Slavic’.
I DO NOT THINK IN RACIAL CATEGORIES – as ‘Slavism’ (as I have used it in ‘Panslavism’) is a political ideology with rassistic connotations.
Did you get that, @Gerry?
I THINK ABOUT HUMANS AS HUMANS – and I don’t like humans who torture other humans – regardless who they are or what they are preaching … .
And now, go and ask Strelkov, what he thinks about GAY humans – for example. Would be interesting to hear the answer.
I keep my thesis, @Gerry, that 95% of the population of Ukraine (Donbas included) were never asked, if they want to go to Civil War.
I ask you again, @Gerry, who – in your humble opinion – ORGANIZED the Civil War on BOTH sides of the conflict – and WHY?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 17, 2014, 02:55HRW has retired (?) CIA agents and State Dept. officials on its board. This is not a wild charge; it is widely known and subject to public debate — a rather milquetoast debate with people suggesting, at their most critical, that it might give a “bad impression.”
Going back at least to Eisenhower, human rights groups have been preferred ‘cover’ for CIA subversion. In the FRUS (Foreign Relations of the U.S.) archives (FRUS X) are published a small sampling as part of a history project that has published minutes of Eisenhower’s and Kennedy’s planning meetings for invading Cuba. Infiltrating or creating human rights groups are a prominent part of these plans. One of their uses is liaison with sabotage groups in deeper cover.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 18, 2014, 04:49So, you, @CASS, would argue then, that the documented HRW cases regarding the torture/punishment/executions of civilians at Slavjansk/Donetsk are all fake, right? Those relatively ‘mild’ cases. I think, it’s a bit more complicated than that.
Why is then Naylor, translator/editor/member of this blog here, publishing the article by the Russian journalist here, documenting the relatively ‘hard’ cases?
I tell you why, @CASS, in the words of the commenter NIKU, quoted from the comment section under the journalist’s article:
” … the things he [the journalist] talk about are better put to light and to discussions …” [NIKU]
I know, that the war crimes committed by Kiev and the West in general are outweighing those cases committed by the Militia, IF you want to start counting bodies. I don’t want to start with that, as it is cynical against every single person being tortured at Donetsk SBU cellars, right?
If we are watching and judging Kiev, then we should be fair enough, to watch the other side of the conflict, too. Otherwise there could be very harsh awakenings in an unknown future of Novorussia – because of the POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT over there, noone wanted to watch or analyze, as they were regarded as the ‘good’ ones. Life isn’t so easy, I guess.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 18, 2014, 19:56Give it a rest Mr Read-a-Lot, you have a subversive agendum here, which is anti-Slavic, for instance.
A few comments back you told me to go fight myself – which I might if I was forty years younger – but then you warned me of what Slavs might do to me when they heard my Aussie accent – presumably you were alluding to this “torture” you keep going on about.
Oh and your theory about some kind of evolution in human nature is bunkum, I suggest that you read Plato’s “Republic” and discover that he accurately describes exactly the same kinds of human behaviour we see today, complete with Sophists like yourself pretending to have vast knowledge.
And go read Schopenhauer’s “World as Will and Representation”, also read David Hume and understand how he awoke Kant from his “dogmatic slumbers”, then get back to me when you’ve understood Kant’s “phenomenal world”.
I can read too you know, but unlike you I have never completely relied on book-learning to form my views.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 18, 2014, 20:33Straw man.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 19, 2014, 05:02Oh, well, okay. I’m sure you are able to comprehend the implications of those two words, but just in case someone here hasn’t done Phil 101 or perhaps does not have English as a first language, let me elaborate.
Rather than reply to what I said, historian has invented his own account of what I WOULD say and then argued with that.
Sleazy.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 19, 2014, 05:16Exactly the same thought crossed my mind too Cass – “straw man” – and he sets his ‘arguments up in the same form as the question, “When did you stop beating your wife?” Sleazy indeed, cunning, but not clever.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 19, 2014, 05:54Glad to here from another poster who THINKS, Gerry.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 20, 2014, 22:46Ok, @CASS.
Then I ask you directly:
1) Do you think, that the documented torture cases stated by Human Rights Watch regarding the Militias reign over Slavjansk and Donetsk during the command of Strelkov are FAKE?
2) Do you think, that the Russian journalist translated by Naylor (who is commitee member of this blog here) is lying?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 20, 2014, 22:42“A few comments back you told me to go fight myself – which I might if I was forty years younger – but then you warned me of what Slavs might do to me when they heard my Aussie accent – presumably you were alluding to this “torture” you keep going on about.” [Gerry]
Hell, @Gerry, I really give it up now to explain anything to you.
You did not read the journalist’s article, right? You just ignored it, right? Keeping your eyes consciously shut, right?
Not ‘presumably’, @Gerry, but rather EXPLICITLY I alluded to the journalist’s eyewitness account of the Militia’s SBU torture at Donetsk – BUT I TALKED NOT ABOUT ‘SLAVS’, BUT ABOUT HUMANS DEFINING THEMSELVES AS ‘SLAVS’ AND THEREFORE SUSPECTING AND TORTURING ‘NON-SLAVS’. Because that is happening, if humans are thinking in rassistic and unscientific terms like ‘Slav’, ‘Arab’, ‘Semite’, ‘Aryan’ and so on … . It’s an IDEOLOGY TO DIVIDE PEOPLE AND CLASSIFY THEM. And it was introduced to the Civil War scenario by Strelkov to do just that – to spur the conflict. And this is not very ethical in my opinion.
If you feel too old to fight, @Gerry, you should restrain yourself from applauding every single line of Strelkov uncritically, as those are the kind of ‘men’ who send others to death. There is no glory and heroism under Grad Fire. Hell, @Gerry, YOU should KNOW that – IF you have the professional experience of a warzone/emergency zone rescue team member or such. Which I slightly doubt by now. If you had that experience, @Gerry, you would see this Civil War with a more analytical, not such nationalistic and even rassistic concept. AS YOU ARE THINKING IN SUCH TERMS AS ‘SLAVS’. ME NOT!
And your Jew-bashing still sucks, @Gerry.
Your philosophical preferences, yeah, they fit you. I myself prefer Plotin’s and Schelling’s Dynamic Holarchy versus Hume’s and Schopi’s short-cut versions of the Human Soul, their degradation of the Human Being as a psycho-emotional mechanism of Nature, which is leading directly to Nietzsche’s ‘Will for Power’ and Biologism in general – and Adolf Hitler. Congrats, @Gerry!
But philosophy is not the topic of this Civil War, but torture. No need to digress … .
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Posted by Historian | Sep 20, 2014, 23:52HISTORIAN: Let me acknowledge that you admit there is no equivalence between the abuses of the two sides.
“Do you think it is fake?” I have no idea. I know that there is an enormous, massively and secretly funded organization, the CIA, with an open mandate to disseminate disinformation however and wherever they can. I have followed their propaganda campaign against Cuba for decades, one which relies heavily on faux human rights groups as well as the big guns Amnesty and HRW. “Documentation” (writing it down) does not add to its credibility for me, nor does its being translated by somebody on a committee. I have seen too many similar reports that were phony to use them as an information source. That does not mean I think it IS fake. I think it could be. I’m surrounded by fans of Strelkov, but I am not one myself and am open to the possibility that such abuses occurred under his command. I’d be more skeptical about men under Zakharchenko, but if they were wearing Galician SS insignia, who knows?
I do not think human rights staff in the field are deliberate agents of disinformation, but there is a culture here that people seem not to be aware of. They see their duty as a defense lawyer sees his. He is not an investigator of his client but his voice and advocate. Even a defense lawyer, however, must ask a few questions to prepare for what the prosecution might bring up. Perhaps a closer analogy would be a rape crisis centre counsellor. She feels it as a sacred duty to be totally and blindly receptive and supportive of a complainant.
In our justice system, this is balanced. There is a prosecutor for every defense lawyer who, while he has a duty to look for truth which a defense lawyer does not have, will hear the defendant with skepticism, cross-examine and probe testimony, ask the hard questions, research the defendant’s background and character, search out other witnesses, gather forensic evidence from crime scene, etc.
An example of what I find unacceptable and perhaps unconscious bias is that there is no recognition of a distinction between “arrested and questioned” and “kidnapped.” Also it seems evident to me that people who have no idea who has done something just name their personal “other side” automatically and I see no sign that anyone asks for evidence of identity.
When the president for which Novorossiya voted was illegally cast out of office, and the parliamentarians they elected were ejected from the Rada by armed hoodlums, the Donetsk Republic was a club. The independence sentiment among civilians who were strangers to each other began to reinvent itself from scratch as a government and an army.
The state of the territories was anarchy. People put aspirational rather than descriptive titles on their formations. There was no political authority and no military structure. There was no discipline or source for it. Bandits and revolutionaries can be distinguished by what they evolved into rather than what they looked like at the time. It’s my impression that everybody in cammies looked like Militia to anybody who didn’t know them personally. The identification of perpetrators of, for example, kidnapping for money, would not, in my professional opinion, stand up to cross-examination.
“We’re not who we were and we’re not who we’re going to be. That’s who we are.”
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Posted by Cass | Sep 21, 2014, 00:04Well, @CASS, now we start to have some sort of discussion to the point – and not just understatements of ‘sleazyness’ and stuff.
“Let me acknowledge that you admit there is no equivalence between the abuses of the two sides.” [CASS]
And let me acknowledge, that you admit that there are abuses on BOTH sides.
To make it once more clear: I have no ‘Anti-Russian’-stance here (as Gerry seems to believe). But I am more and more sceptical about the character of political leadership at Donbas, and this is a completely different viewpoint. I cannot say anything about Zakharchenko, have no information read about him, but I know Strelkov’s kind of ideology, which I reject. I ackknowledge his military expertise and skills, but I don’t like his Panslavism for the reasons I stated.
If my rhetorical questions are ‘sleazy’, then your answers could be coined as a bit ‘slippery’/’watery’, @CASS.
If we both agree, that the HRW/Amnesty-club is at least problematic, if not bought or corrupted by the State Department/CIA and others (as it is discussed for some time now by activists), then we have to dismiss the HRW cases regarding the Militia and file them away under the category ‘WE DO NOT KNOW (EXACTLY)’. Ok. Those are the ‘mild’ cases. The ‘hard’ cases (teeth-pulling torture and execution of underaged ‘POW’) are described by the Russian journalist, who allegedly broke his non-disclosure-agreement with Strelkov (signed). Some people claimed here: those accounts of the journalist mean nothing. I got the impression, that this blog here, ‘Slavjanskgrad’ has an agenda – to give information about the conflict from a Novorussian perspective. Therefore I found it very remarkable, that Naylor published this very Strelkov-critical piece of information. Obviously there was some need for discussion about the POLITICAL ASPECTS OF NOVORUSSIA. But alot of people (like Gerry) just ignore those aspects – like torture of civilians and POW.
As you indicate, @CASS, there is a political development at Donbas, of course. Let’s hope it has principles of non-torture, for example.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 21, 2014, 01:09Go to you tube, search Zakharchenko. Watch major press conference and speech to POWs, both with English subtitles.
I have reread the piece and can now say I believe it is a fake. First, what credentials the writer has to call himself a journalist are murky indeed. Second, if I look at his itinerary and make a list of what he must have seen, I can’t imagine a good reason why nothing of the sort is in his report. The dog did nothing in the night.
BTW, what I thought I was making clear was that I don’t believe there were two sides. I think there was chaos and no organization at all. The best and most successful attempt to establish a structured and disciplined army under civilian control was made only in the past few weeks, and it cannot be declared a finished product yet. I have yet to see any problems attributed to bikers, skinheads, organized crime, street gangs — they have to have been in there taking advantage of the anarchy. I think the Militia has had all their actions laid at its feet.
Bad press re Strelkov needs to be read with caution. Strelkov is now out. There was a long campaign to oust him. This could have been part of it.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 21, 2014, 07:53“Bad press re Strelkov needs to be read with caution. Strelkov is now out. There was a long campaign to oust him. This could have been part of it.” [CASS]
There is something to it, yes, @CASS, this COULD be the case. But we don’t know. Therefore I sum it up:
3 different opinions, we will not get any mutually agreements here:
1) Gerry likes Strelkov and thinks, he is a betrayed gentleman, warrior and folk hero of Novorussia, fighting for his Slavic People diligently, bravely and honorable.
2) Historian dislikes Strelkov and thinks, he is a professional military for ‘special purposes’ like organizing (!) Ethnical Conflict, fighting with any brutal methods available, even Systematic Counterintelligence Torture and being therefore ousted by Putin to deescalate the Civil War (after sending Strelkov to escalate it …).
3) CASS is neutral in his feelings against Strelkov and thinks, any proofs for war crimes by the Militia are dubious or fake – or merely a hint at anarchy and disorganization of half- or non-Militia crime-gangs.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 21, 2014, 20:02You are wrong in every element of your description of my opinions. You have my sex wrong too.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 22, 2014, 01:39He is good at getting a lot wrong, which I suppose is easy when one’s mind is too made up to consider alternatives.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 22, 2014, 02:19I don’t think so, Gerry. I don’t smell conviction. He’s amusing himself. The fact that the Das Reich division flew the wolfsangel over Babi Yar doesn’t mean he has to take it seriously that it is being flown again.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 22, 2014, 22:22No, no conviction Cass, just amusing himself out of self-perceived ‘superiority’ … he can get himself another sand box to play in.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 23, 2014, 04:49@Cass, as my nick suggests, I have taken any human topic, especially historical ones, VERY serious, since I can read – a long way back. Especially topics with close connections to the Shoa and Ukrainian Forced Labor (by the SS and Arbeitsamt), as my German grandparents have been directly confronted by that, ok? I am not amused by anything regarding suffering of human beings, otherwise I would post here completely different stuff, ok?
@Gerry, YOU, who annoys me by calling me different things for some time now, should not judge my emotions and feelings. If you yourself feel inferior or something, I cannot help you. I am just defending myself, if being called a Nazi or a Zionist by strangers, who do not know me, ok?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 23, 2014, 17:12Nevermind, @CASS, feel free to correct my lines by yourself.
Self-description, @Gerry?
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Posted by Historian | Sep 22, 2014, 18:42I’ll give you one for me. My intellectual training is in philosophy, language, law, logic, a bit of social anthropology. My hobby is deconstructing propaganda, which I have practised for many decades.
Even if you didn’t recognize my nom de guerre as Cassandra (cursed always to tell the truth and never to be believed), you should have known I was a woman because of my comfort with “those three little words that men find it impossible to say”:
“I don’t know.”
You haven’t made yourself familiar with Alexandr Zakharchenko through YouTube, as I suggested, have you? This is unmistakably a good and decent man. If you afraid to expose yourself to such a conclusion by looking at the evidence, spare us your “skepticism about the character of the political leadership of Donbas.” You don’t have to “read” about AZ. You can actually watch him, hear the voice, watch the body language, see how POWs interact with him. Particularly note the boy, moral struggle naked on his too-young face, who refuses to shake hands with him.
“Don’t unleash the Beast. Just . . . don’t.” This is a plain-spoken man; no way was this acting.
I am suspending judgement on Strelkov only because I have read sources I find credible who say he is close to Zakharchenko. Perhaps it is just that they have fought together back to back; this can’t help but create a bond. Bare is back without brother. I have listened to Strelkov and watched him. His view of the constructive role he could play in Russia is an Orwellian nightmare. Or perhaps Shakespearean. Iago.
As a student of social anthropology, I categorically reject your categorical rejection of Pan-Slavism and similar concepts as racist. They are a necessary, but far from a sufficient, precondition. There’s an enormous stretch between “We are one people” to “therefore we are entitled to exterminate other people.” Mankind has travelled a long, long road in its defining of “us” and “them.” Once it was which side of the river you lived on. I believe ties that cross state boundaries are a step upward on this journey, as Pan-Africanism is an advance on tribalism.
To those who are curious about the emerging leadership in the Donbas, go to YouTube and search ‘Zakharchenko POWs’ and ‘Zakharchenko press conference.’ For those of you have been left in the lurch by the pace of change, Zakharchenko is Prime Minister of the DPR, and the man in charge during the offensive. Strelkov claims credit for planning the offensive, but I doubt him on this. It did not bear his hallmark.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 22, 2014, 23:58“Cass meaning and name origin
Cass \c(a)-ss\ as a boy’s name (also used as girl’s name Cass), has the meaning “treasurer; curly-headed; ingenious, clever” and is a variant of Caspar (Persian): Dutch form of Jasper. Also a variant of Cassidy (Irish, Welsh, Gaelic). Cass is also used as a variant of Cassius (Latin): possibly “empty, hollow”.”
Choose any meaning and sex you want, @Cass, even as a surname.
Well, @Cass, in short: I talked and argued with Gerry about the role of Strelkov, who was Defense Minister of the DPR for some time. Zakharchenko is a different can of worms, albeit you seem to discover bonds or similarities between the military leaders of the DPR (in ideology, brutality and obsession with power). Which would not irritate myself. Nevertheless I prefer ‘reading’ different and lengthy sources versus watching visual snippets only anytime, just to round out my inner picture of reconstructed events.
I hold my rejection of Panslavism as an inherently rassistic ideology, @Cass. Racism does not necessarily imply any genocidal program, but first and foremost the connotation of a VERY LARGE group of people with distinct pychological and/or cultural traits, which are regarded by the racist as a biologically inborn and undeniable characteristic of the race member – as some kind of stereotype. For example:
All Blacks are dumb, sexually aggressive and superstitious.
All Whites are logical, civilized and born to rule.
All Semites (Jews) are cowardly, cunning and greedy.
All Slavs are strong, brave and sentimental.
To name a few 1900-racisms. There are 2 main problems with such concepts:
1) the criteria to divide the humans in a ‘correct’ way are non-existent or unscientific (like measuring the length of the skull, an outgrowth of biological views on mankind) – so, when is a Black a Black, or is he Half-Black, Half-White, Not-quite-White … and who IS REALLY WHITE, I mean … ? So: racism means vague metaphorical IMAGINATIONS of groups of people – with a very wide margin of interpretation, like Hermann Göring said: ‘I decide, who is a Jew!’
2) the psychological/cultural traits as racial stereotypes are merely projections or self-interpretations (as self-aggrandizement) of the specific group of people, who believe in their overall goodness and quality – and the overall badness and low-quality of other racial groups.
In short: it is in any way utmost bullshit.
To have a look at the term ‘Panslavism’: who is a ‘Slav’? A human born in Russia? With a ‘slavic’ face? What’s that? Speaking Russian? So, Ukrainian-speaking people are non-Slavs? But Strelkov and Mozgovoi want ALL Ukrainians to detect their ‘Inner Slavic Heart’? Where does the ‘Pan’ stop – and where does it start at all? And of course, such concepts could be very, very dangerous, as we all know by heart, @Cass.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 23, 2014, 02:02I draw the line at discussing racism with someone who can’t spell it.
Cass out.
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Posted by Cass | Sep 23, 2014, 02:38Oh my goodness, @Cass, thanks for pointing that out for me! ‘Rassistic’! Na, da ist mir aber die deutsche Schule in die Quere gekommen, wie?
But the rest of my (short) discussion of racism and racistic things is quite sufficient for grammar/spelling-sensible people, isn’t it?
@Cass, if you don’t want to debate with me, because of time constraints or other things, you should communicate that to me. To just cut the line by hinting at not-very-important mistakes of your discussion partner, is a bit rude.
But maybe, it’s better that way, as I will have no time (either) for the next few days – I have to prepare myself for a journey 🙂 .
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Posted by Historian | Sep 23, 2014, 18:01I draw the line at someone who does not know that Arabs are Semites.
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Posted by gerryhiles | Sep 23, 2014, 05:05@Gerry, for racists in the classical sense of the term, ‘Arabs’ were excluded from the ‘Semite’ group, because of geopolitical reasons – and I talked about that, right? There were times, when ‘Semites’ were mainly identified as ‘Hebrews’ or ‘Jews’ – Ancient History was not a matter of interest then.
Also, I know, that American Marines called even people in Afghanistan ‘Fucking Arabs’, because of their imagination, what an ‘Arab’ has to be like – and they know no other term for a VERY, VERY large group of people from Syria to Pakistan.
That’s, why I listed ‘Arabs’ separately from the ‘Semites’ – as I talked about the RACIAL TERMINOLOGY, right?
Beside that, you should consider, @Gerry, that you are talking about very fragile and ancient definitions of ethno-linguistical/cultural groups here, which would hardly pass a scientific test, those old biblical and tribal terms.
Anyway, I am glad, that you draw the line at me – because, that signals me, that you want to stop talking to me.
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Posted by Historian | Sep 23, 2014, 18:30